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	<title>Comments on: In which I write of paint continuing to dry</title>
	<atom:link href="http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/</link>
	<description>A first draft of electoral history</description>
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		<title>By: Larry</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1382</link>
		<dc:creator>Larry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1382</guid>
		<description>One question about Undecided Voters...

After reading you article it occurs to me - you say they simply require this extra time to come to correct conclusion.  I don&#039;t have any real problem with that.  But couldn&#039;t we test that theory by moving the election day without notice to like Sept 21, 2008 so they would have had to decide sooner?  Force them to either use the information they have to make a choice or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One question about Undecided Voters&#8230;</p>
<p>After reading you article it occurs to me &#8211; you say they simply require this extra time to come to correct conclusion.  I don&#8217;t have any real problem with that.  But couldn&#8217;t we test that theory by moving the election day without notice to like Sept 21, 2008 so they would have had to decide sooner?  Force them to either use the information they have to make a choice or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Wang</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1312</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Wang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 14:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1312</guid>
		<description>The corrections by William and Michael are technically true, but they are highly unlikely to be invoked in the coming political climate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The corrections by William and Michael are technically true, but they are highly unlikely to be invoked in the coming political climate.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1294</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1294</guid>
		<description>Well, if you want to get technical, the Senate does not impeach, the House does (on a simple majority vote, I believe).  The Senate requires a two thirds vote to convict on an article of impeachment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, if you want to get technical, the Senate does not impeach, the House does (on a simple majority vote, I believe).  The Senate requires a two thirds vote to convict on an article of impeachment.</p>
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		<title>By: William</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1291</link>
		<dc:creator>William</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 14:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1291</guid>
		<description>&quot;The U.S. Senate has three thresholds for action: a simple majority (51 votes), a three-fifths majority (60 votes), and unanimity (100 votes).&quot;

There&#039;s actually a fourth threshold for action--67 votes, required to 1) impeach 2) pass a constitutional amendment and 3) overturn a veto.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The U.S. Senate has three thresholds for action: a simple majority (51 votes), a three-fifths majority (60 votes), and unanimity (100 votes).&#8221;</p>
<p>There&#8217;s actually a fourth threshold for action&#8211;67 votes, required to 1) impeach 2) pass a constitutional amendment and 3) overturn a veto.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Wang</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1282</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Wang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:46:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1282</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;AlanJae&lt;/b&gt; - I believe your concern is misplaced.

The U.S. Senate has three thresholds for action: a simple majority (51 votes), a three-fifths majority (60 votes), and unanimity (100 votes). Various forms of action may be blocked by one, 41, or 51 Senators. The point of reaching 60 votes is to increase the likelihood of getting major legislation passed at all without fear of obstruction. 

Also, the Senate is an institution naturally inclined toward compromise and bipartisanship. The U.S. Congress is often likened to teacup resting on a saucer. They felt that hot passions in the majoritarian chamber (House/teacup) could be cooled when they spilled over into the consensus-requiring chamber (Senate/saucer). Majority and minority Senators alike offer amendments, which are often considered. 

Finally, there is a dynamic specific to the U.S. situation. Congressional Republicans are rather recent sufferers of the malady you mention. I saw this in person when I worked for a year as a member of House staff, then Senate staff. Congressional traditions of consultation and bipartisanship went out the window when they came into power in 1995, the year I arrived. The older traditions need to be restored. Also, the Republican Party has lost touch with its avowed basic principles. Some purifying time in the wilderness will improve their prospects in the future - and eventually help the entire nation by making them a more positive force for pushing back against Democrats. To put it another way, my country needs partisanship in the good sense. We don&#039;t have it now. 

Finally, my local Congressman, Rush Holt, points out that bipartisanship is easier when the majority is not under threat of losing its status in the near future.

To reiterate, if readers here want the maximum leverage over next year&#039;s legislative action, they can achieve this by contributing to Senate races. For Democrats, go to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.actblue.com/page/meta-analysis-08&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ActBlue&lt;/a&gt;. For Republicans, the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nrsc.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;NRSC&lt;/a&gt; is appropriate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>AlanJae</b> &#8211; I believe your concern is misplaced.</p>
<p>The U.S. Senate has three thresholds for action: a simple majority (51 votes), a three-fifths majority (60 votes), and unanimity (100 votes). Various forms of action may be blocked by one, 41, or 51 Senators. The point of reaching 60 votes is to increase the likelihood of getting major legislation passed at all without fear of obstruction. </p>
<p>Also, the Senate is an institution naturally inclined toward compromise and bipartisanship. The U.S. Congress is often likened to teacup resting on a saucer. They felt that hot passions in the majoritarian chamber (House/teacup) could be cooled when they spilled over into the consensus-requiring chamber (Senate/saucer). Majority and minority Senators alike offer amendments, which are often considered. </p>
<p>Finally, there is a dynamic specific to the U.S. situation. Congressional Republicans are rather recent sufferers of the malady you mention. I saw this in person when I worked for a year as a member of House staff, then Senate staff. Congressional traditions of consultation and bipartisanship went out the window when they came into power in 1995, the year I arrived. The older traditions need to be restored. Also, the Republican Party has lost touch with its avowed basic principles. Some purifying time in the wilderness will improve their prospects in the future &#8211; and eventually help the entire nation by making them a more positive force for pushing back against Democrats. To put it another way, my country needs partisanship in the good sense. We don&#8217;t have it now. </p>
<p>Finally, my local Congressman, Rush Holt, points out that bipartisanship is easier when the majority is not under threat of losing its status in the near future.</p>
<p>To reiterate, if readers here want the maximum leverage over next year&#8217;s legislative action, they can achieve this by contributing to Senate races. For Democrats, go to <a href="http://www.actblue.com/page/meta-analysis-08" rel="nofollow">ActBlue</a>. For Republicans, the <a href="http://www.nrsc.org" rel="nofollow">NRSC</a> is appropriate.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen Good</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1281</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen Good</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:46:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1281</guid>
		<description>To Alan Jae:  
Here in the UK the polls are saying that the electorate trusts Brown rather than Cameron in the current crisis, but will vote for Cameron rather than Brown in an election.  I think boredom may be a factor, and the desire to give the other side a fair go, as well as the sins of Blair being visited on Brown.

And, because I am a pedant, to whoever was misquoting Acton: 
It is &#039;Power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.&#039;  Even if Acton was correct, a president with a filibuster-proof majority isn&#039;t bound to go bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Alan Jae:<br />
Here in the UK the polls are saying that the electorate trusts Brown rather than Cameron in the current crisis, but will vote for Cameron rather than Brown in an election.  I think boredom may be a factor, and the desire to give the other side a fair go, as well as the sins of Blair being visited on Brown.</p>
<p>And, because I am a pedant, to whoever was misquoting Acton:<br />
It is &#8216;Power tends to corrupt and absolute power tends to corrupt absolutely.&#8217;  Even if Acton was correct, a president with a filibuster-proof majority isn&#8217;t bound to go bad.</p>
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		<title>By: AlanJae</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1278</link>
		<dc:creator>AlanJae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1278</guid>
		<description>Just like to throw in my two bob&#039;s worth on the filibuster issue. In the 2004 Federal election in Australia (my home country), the conservative party gained enough seats to have the majority of members in both the Senate and House of Representatives. This allowed them to create and pass laws without the input of the opposition party. 
While conservatives all around the country were pretty cock-a-hoop about this unbridled political power at the time, it came back to bite the government in the ass at the next election. Basically, without the requirement to consult and compromise with the opposition to pass new legislation, the government became more and more idealogically extreme. Their control of the Senate and House of Reps allowed them to pass numerous contentious / unpopular laws (e.g. favouring employers over employees, hardline immigration). This use / abuse of power had the duel consequence of disenfranchising voters and removing any responsibility for bad policy from the opposition.
Thus, when election time came around in 2007, the conservatives were trounced. Partly as a consequence of their long time in power (10+ years) but also for the perception that they stopped governing for the electorate once they gained control of both houses after the 2004 election.

So Democrats, be careful. If everything does come up Milhouse for you in this election, the Republican party will be able to wash their hands of any unpopular or ultra-partisan policies enacted during the reign of Barack and perhaps deliver an unexpected ass kicking next time around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just like to throw in my two bob&#8217;s worth on the filibuster issue. In the 2004 Federal election in Australia (my home country), the conservative party gained enough seats to have the majority of members in both the Senate and House of Representatives. This allowed them to create and pass laws without the input of the opposition party.<br />
While conservatives all around the country were pretty cock-a-hoop about this unbridled political power at the time, it came back to bite the government in the ass at the next election. Basically, without the requirement to consult and compromise with the opposition to pass new legislation, the government became more and more idealogically extreme. Their control of the Senate and House of Reps allowed them to pass numerous contentious / unpopular laws (e.g. favouring employers over employees, hardline immigration). This use / abuse of power had the duel consequence of disenfranchising voters and removing any responsibility for bad policy from the opposition.<br />
Thus, when election time came around in 2007, the conservatives were trounced. Partly as a consequence of their long time in power (10+ years) but also for the perception that they stopped governing for the electorate once they gained control of both houses after the 2004 election.</p>
<p>So Democrats, be careful. If everything does come up Milhouse for you in this election, the Republican party will be able to wash their hands of any unpopular or ultra-partisan policies enacted during the reign of Barack and perhaps deliver an unexpected ass kicking next time around.</p>
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		<title>By: Sam Wang</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1277</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam Wang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:08:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1277</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Evans&lt;/b&gt; - your approach is not bad at all. 

Regarding the 30% estimate, here is how he (or anyone) would make such an estimate: start with today&#039;s Senate polls,  then take a guess about how much the polls may be off, or may change, by Election Day. As it turns out, it would take a rather large swing of opinion, &gt;5%, to make the distribution broad enough to get to 30% for 60 votes. This is why I am skeptical. I don&#039;t believe the assumption, and I suspect that it&#039;s a case of Silver saying something exciting for the gallery - kind of like what all those hated TV pundits do. Most people don&#039;t know enough about statistics to judge these statements, and simply accept the absurdity.

&lt;b&gt;gprimos1&lt;/b&gt; - Are you kidding? A &quot;wild&quot; swing? That fluctuation is rather small. It only looks large compared to the steadiness of the overall estimate over time.

The answer to one of your statistical questions is that the median is &lt;i&gt;more&lt;/i&gt; resistant to swings due to its ability to reject outliers. However, it is a less &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_efficiency#Examples&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;efficient&lt;/a&gt; statistic, meaning that it gives error bars that tend to be somewhat larger. Using it is basically my version of guarding against unknown problems in pollster methodologies.

You have also conflated your median/mean question with another question, whether to weight data. There is such a thing as a weighted median, but I decided it didn&#039;t add that much to the analysis.

One course of action you did not describe is to use data over a longer time scale than one week. This would require identification of the appropriate time scale. I may go down this road on Election Eve. But it involves another layer of algorithm development. I&#039;ll wait and see if it&#039;s needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Evans</b> &#8211; your approach is not bad at all. </p>
<p>Regarding the 30% estimate, here is how he (or anyone) would make such an estimate: start with today&#8217;s Senate polls,  then take a guess about how much the polls may be off, or may change, by Election Day. As it turns out, it would take a rather large swing of opinion, >5%, to make the distribution broad enough to get to 30% for 60 votes. This is why I am skeptical. I don&#8217;t believe the assumption, and I suspect that it&#8217;s a case of Silver saying something exciting for the gallery &#8211; kind of like what all those hated TV pundits do. Most people don&#8217;t know enough about statistics to judge these statements, and simply accept the absurdity.</p>
<p><b>gprimos1</b> &#8211; Are you kidding? A &#8220;wild&#8221; swing? That fluctuation is rather small. It only looks large compared to the steadiness of the overall estimate over time.</p>
<p>The answer to one of your statistical questions is that the median is <i>more</i> resistant to swings due to its ability to reject outliers. However, it is a less <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_efficiency#Examples" rel="nofollow">efficient</a> statistic, meaning that it gives error bars that tend to be somewhat larger. Using it is basically my version of guarding against unknown problems in pollster methodologies.</p>
<p>You have also conflated your median/mean question with another question, whether to weight data. There is such a thing as a weighted median, but I decided it didn&#8217;t add that much to the analysis.</p>
<p>One course of action you did not describe is to use data over a longer time scale than one week. This would require identification of the appropriate time scale. I may go down this road on Election Eve. But it involves another layer of algorithm development. I&#8217;ll wait and see if it&#8217;s needed.</p>
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		<title>By: gprimos1</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1275</link>
		<dc:creator>gprimos1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1275</guid>
		<description>The median EV graph is fluctuating a lot  yesterday and today, largely on a few polls in OH and FL.  I wonder if it is a mistake for the model to use the median instead of some kind of weighted average.  Wouldn&#039;t the mean be more resistant to these wild swings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The median EV graph is fluctuating a lot  yesterday and today, largely on a few polls in OH and FL.  I wonder if it is a mistake for the model to use the median instead of some kind of weighted average.  Wouldn&#8217;t the mean be more resistant to these wild swings?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael K</title>
		<link>http://election.princeton.edu/2008/10/22/in-which-i-write-of-paint-continuing-to-dry/comment-page-1/#comment-1274</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael K</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:21:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://election.princeton.edu/?p=1956#comment-1274</guid>
		<description>Re: Blue Dogs:  I wouldn&#039;t go as far as Mike L. (that Republicans are better off supporting conservative Democrats).  But I think he touches on an important point: 

Instead of basing our support strictly on the closeness of the race and party ID, shouldn&#039;t we also research and factor in the candidates&#039; positions?  

Some Senate races feature a much starker contrast between the candidates than others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Blue Dogs:  I wouldn&#8217;t go as far as Mike L. (that Republicans are better off supporting conservative Democrats).  But I think he touches on an important point: </p>
<p>Instead of basing our support strictly on the closeness of the race and party ID, shouldn&#8217;t we also research and factor in the candidates&#8217; positions?  </p>
<p>Some Senate races feature a much starker contrast between the candidates than others.</p>
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